Curse

Captain Robo · Apr 19, 2007, 02:19 PM // 14:19

Perhaps if enemies were more like... say, the Zaishen team you fight right before Hall of Heroes (unworthies, whatever they're called), more groups would be mesmer friendly.

In terms of AI and skill, those enemies are the hardest foes you fight in the entire game.

Lynnrose · Apr 19, 2007, 02:33 PM // 14:33

As I read the OP, I thought "oh great, here come the two melee + three mesmer GvG builds again." Eurospike gimmickry sucked and was primarily fueled by damage dealing mesmer skills (plus the stupid shadowstepping mechanic acting as a cover for poor warrior play). While I agree there are a great deal of mesmer skills that need to be reworked so they're viable, I completely disagree that the class needs an overhaul with an eye primarily on PvE play. If anything needs an adjustment, it's the PvE play itself and the fact that mass damage can overwhelm pretty much any mob. Revising even one monster's bar in a group such that it needs to be shut-down in order for the rest to fall would go a long way towards helping mesmers be considered more viable in PvE. The type of monster could rotate from mob to mob such that it's a ward spamming ele one time and a monk with a proper Gift of Health prot bar the next. Even if they don't do so in easy mode PvE (now there's a redundancy), it could/should be implemented in the upcoming hard mode. Bottom line: there'll be a lot of rage if they imbalance PvP in order to make it easier for mesmers to find a group at DoA.

Soul reaping was bad, bad, bad in PvP. Those stupid spirit/minion crapping N/Rt teams were able to spam hexes and/or spike skills with no concern for energy management (and also with little reason to worry about defensive positioning because of the spirit cover). A capable minion master in PvE shouldn't be negatively impacted by the change. Likewise, someone who understands the concepts of energy management shouldn't suffer. The other day I gave Olias GoLE and Sig of Lost Souls plus a bar full of 10/15e hexes and he spammed like mad throughout an entire mission with no energy difficulties. I know heroes are typically better than humans, but "his" performance convinced me that life as a PvE necro hasn't been trashed by the change to soul reaping. It's trite, I know, but the SR change was really a "lrn2play" moment for a lot of folks and I hope ANet sticks to its guns (or, even better, further tempers SR with an eye towards PvP by negating the energy gain from spirits).

Skyy High · Apr 19, 2007, 02:46 PM // 14:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by :::Q:::

Wait wait wait... I came rushing into the forums today in hopes of seeing something solid (was told about game update last night) only to find Anet's official statement to be: We still don't really know what to do yet?

What the hell.

While I understand that finding the answer to the timer problem will take time, it takes arrogance to think that telling us "it will take time" is enough to be considered an "update".
[gaile chat]
Don't ever put words into our mouths again, or think for a second that you know how we feel. I will leave the game and sell my account on eBay for arrogance like this, I swear it.
If it is the development teams' position that they know and can account for all, then they know nothing, and can account for nothing. If this is the general attitude of devs at ArenaNet, I will be leaving the game. Period.

Instead of leaving us in the dark, ANet decides to tell us where they're going with these changes, and you call it arrogance? Sounds like you are the one with an excess of that particular trait, good sir.

Also, maybe Gaile should have said in her chat, "All reasonable and knowledgeable necros have agreed that soul reaping needed a change." It did. Period. Hassle-free energy management is not conducive to PvE balance, and YES there is such a thing. Especially with the upcoming hard mode, which ANet wants to actually be hard. I would imagine this change has come in an attempt to make it so 2 MMs and 2 SF eles can't roll every hard mode mission and area in the game.

If you really think threatening to sell your game account will stop ANet from providing needed balances, you're deluded. Actually, I think if you care enough about the game to threaten as such, you're more deluded if you think you'd go through with it, but maybe that's just me not being able to understand people who make such threats, as if they help with the conversation AT ALL.

To help with the conversation, Progor's solution (or something like this, the numbers could be changed) seems to me to be the most elegant solution, and would work well.

Quote:

You gain SR/3 energy and 1 pip of energy regen for SR*2 seconds.

You are enchanted with this every time a mob dies, and it stacks with itself. This means:

At 15 Soul Reaping:
You gain 5 energy + 1 pip for 30 seconds (10 energy from regen) for 15 total
If one mob dies every 5 seconds, you remain at max regen
Anything faster, and you go over the regen cap, but still get some energy from the initial burst

At 9 Soul Reaping:
You gain 3 energy + 1 pip for 18 seconds (6 energy from regen) for 9 total
If one mob dies every 3 seconds, you remain at max regen

So you can see that if a mob dies every 5 seconds or more, it's just like both of the old systems, except for most of your energy comes in the form of regen instead of bursts.

At 12 Soul Reaping (most Necros run 11-13 SR, so 12 was chosen):
You gain 4 energy, + 1 pip for 24 seconds

A mob dies every 5 seconds: (old SR - 3.73 eps)
You average 8.8 pips regen (9 for 4 seconds, 1 for 1 second)
4 energy per 5 seconds, + 2.93 eps from regen (8.8/3) = 3.73 eps

every 4 seconds: (old SR - 4.33 eps)
You average 10 pips regen
4 energy per 4 seconds, + 3.33 eps from regen = 4.33 eps

every 3 seconds: (old SR - 5.33 eps)
You are capped at 10 pips regen
4 energy per 3 seconds, + 3.33 eps from regen = 4.66 eps

every 2 seconds: (old SR - 7.33 eps)
You are capped at 10 pips regen
4 energy per 2 seconds, + 3.33 eps from regen = 5.33 eps

every 1 second: (old SR - 13.33 eps)
You are capped at 10 pips regen
4 energy per 1 second, + 3.33 eps from regen = 7.33 eps

From this you can see that as stuff dies faster, the energy gained over time (eps) scales much slower than the old way, making this adjustment satisfy the needs of the nerf bat. On the other hand, up to 6 mobs can die at once, and the Necro will still gain the full benefit of their soul reaping attribute.

HolyHawk · Apr 19, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Thank you for you concern to mesmers in pve, but I am curious how exactly you plan on addressing to them? Is it via pve-skills only? Global skill balance? Wider mob skill list? I really do not see how mesmer will be needed if you don't change the pve structure. I'm assuming however, that hard mode will probably change the situation a little, at least.

Series · Apr 19, 2007, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skyy High

If you really think threatening to sell your game account will stop ANet from providing needed balances, you're deluded.

Actually, the threat is to MAKE Anet provide needed balances, as they have not done so.

**cosyfiep** · Apr 19, 2007, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Its nice to see that they understand about mesmers....since I have 3 yes three of them I usually play with heros and henchies.....so I would love to be accepted into groups like my necro or ele------
so three cheers for that!!

My necro hasnt been played for a while since she doesnt like to do minnions, but a guildee needed some assistance so I hopped on with my necro and well, I was unimpressed with the change in sr

......I understood that it was overpowering (heck mm's rule the game for the most part!).....but the nerf took it a bit tooo far.....so I am happy that they are still looking into it, since waiting around for your skills to recharge is bad enough, but also waiting after that to get enough energy to build a new minion is a bit much. I think I will go back to ss until this is over.

MSecorsky · Apr 19, 2007, 03:48 PM // 15:48

It's a pity that people who know so much about this game know so little about this game. Mesmers make everyone else better while doing nice damage, plus other effects. Any FoW group, for example, will run much more smoothly with a good Dom mez along, and that Dom mez will dish out nearly as much damage as anyone else, while preventing boatloads of damage and allowing your "damage dealers" to do their jobs more easily. This also makes for better monks because they have less damage to heal. Some skills that are great for FoW, for example, are Shatter and Inspired Hex (heavy damage plus great e-management while allowing your others to fight on un-hexed), Energy Surge is still a nice AoE when you have a good aggro-taking tank... Mistrust adds to the AoE. Backfire... a must have.

People like to say that mesmers aren't "necessary", however, they actually make a party much more efficient than say, that third ele does. Tanks become tankier, casters castier, monks monkier. They deal and prevent damage in a combination like no others.

"Necessity" is the wrong word to use. Mesmers make your party better. Yes, you can get by with that third ele, but you'll do better with the mesmer along.

Solaufyn · Apr 19, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Is it just me, or did that post about the Mesmer manage to completely dodge the issue?

She told us:
-Mesmers aren't being invited into parties.
-Mesmer effects aren't visible.
-Mesmers require skill.
-Party leaders don't know how much skill the Mesmer player has.

Nothing about the skills. Nothing about Fast Casting. Nothing at all.

In what way does that tell us ANY "preliminary information about how the designers are looking at the Mesmer, with some early thoughts on potential changes to the profession that will be directed towards Mesmer players in PvE mode???"

I don't see any information about anything the designers are actually doing, do any of you? Just that the designers are "going to take a look at potentially widening the scope of the Mesmers and, perhaps, adding more damage to the mix in a Mesmer-themed way." (emphasis mine)

"Going to," "take a look," "potentially," and "perhaps," all in the same sentence? That's not a good sign.

Where's the beef, ANet? The same post talks miles about testing out our Soul Reaping builds, in both before and after versions? Sounds like actual work is actually being done on the Necromancer, but nothing on the Mesmer other than how they might, in the future, perhaps, take a look at the Mesmer. Why have Mesmers been put at the bottom of the pile... again?

The Mesmer half of this post is nothing to celebrate over, folks. It's just a dodging of the issue that shows how Mesmers are being ignored... again.

-Sol

Ferret · Apr 19, 2007, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Mesmers are great, one of my oldest characters is one, but a lot of their skills have been nerfed, mainly due to use in secondary professions.

If you put most of the mesmer interrupts and energy recovery skills into the fast casting primary skill, you'd instantly be giving the mesmer a boost as a primary profession.

A few more general interrupts (non-spell caster) and non-conditional damage skills would be good.

Series · Apr 19, 2007, 04:01 PM // 16:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solaufyn

Is it just me, or did that post about the Mesmer manage to completely dodge the issue?

It's called "damage control".

lyra_song · Apr 19, 2007, 04:04 PM // 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solaufyn

Is it just me, or did that post about the Mesmer manage to completely dodge the issue?

Anet knows theres a problem. Anet acknowledges the problem in public.

If Anet wanted to dodge the issue, they would have kept their mouth shut.

How can you criticize Anet for actually TALKING to its players. Other game companies would never have this level of player control.

I believe Anet has learned from the SR nerf that doing major mechanic changes without player feedback first is not the best way to do things.

MSecorsky · Apr 19, 2007, 04:19 PM // 16:19

I must be the only one who actually likes Fast Casting. Tried other casters... do you realize how long a three seconds skill actually takes to cast without fast casting?! I felt myself age. It's fun to see an ele start casting meteor shower, run downstairs and throw a load in the laundry, brew up a fresh batch of lattes, get back to the computer and interrupt it. I like casting spells and having them cast before that warrior finished his sword attack! I like it!

How is this any value in PvE? It gives me the time to choose the right spell for the right situation. It allows me to deal damage at a faster rate and regain my energy quickly without my hair greying in the process.

Now... like mentioned, a lot of skills should be either moved to fast casting -or-, even better, have a chance of failure without a minimum in fast casting.

Big_Iron · Apr 19, 2007, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Anet knows theres a problem. Anet acknowledges the problem in public.

If Anet wanted to dodge the issue, they would have kept their mouth shut.

How can you criticize Anet for actually TALKING to its players. Other game companies would never have this level of player control.

I believe Anet has learned from the SR nerf that doing major mechanic changes without player feedback first is not the best way to do things.

QFT... I've been playing PC games for a few years and have never seen a company invite player feedback (and actually LISTEN) the way Anet does.

VinnyRidira · Apr 19, 2007, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

AoE interrupt - Cry of Frustration

AoE degen is more on the Necromancer line.

AoE energy steal - Signet of weariness

These skills are good...but really...theres no point to them in PvE

-------------------
Ranger Interrupt VS Mesmer interrupt. There seems to be some rubbish that rangers are better at interruption than mesmers.

Rangers interrupts are cheaper and by far easier to spam. They often have no "additional" effect, other than damage, with except of [wiki]Broadhead Arrow[/wiki], which i think pays for its high cost.

Mesmer interrupts cause way, way more damage, specifically to spellcasters and more negative impact to the target or positive impact to the caster (like [wiki]Power Block[/wiki] or [wiki]Power Spike[/wiki]).

Mesmers also have melee interrupt like [wiki]Ineptitude[/wiki] and [wiki]Clumsiness[/wiki] which are just fun vs Assassins ^^ oh lets not forget [wiki]Psychic Distraction[/wiki]

I will look at [wiki]Ineptitude[/wiki] but I generally run a very Vanilla Mesmer build. It seems resilient and I guess I would not go farming with it.

Code:

OQZEAZkSOpYDQByoBD+KgC9A

with a spread over all attributes

Plague · Apr 19, 2007, 04:37 PM // 16:37

You know, I'm very close to UAS, and I've never bothered to unlock Cry of Frustration. It's mainly because I don't like mesmer interrupts, and also because I just don't think of it as being that useful. Casters don't usually stand around together to begin with, and they don't all cast simultaneously.

I know that the whole idea of mesmers interrupting spells is quite nice, but I find the only people I can reliably interrupt are Necromancers and Elementalists, and Rits, although the whole "it's not a spell, it's a ritual" thing throws me off. Monks will sometimes have one or two things I can interrupt, but generally, all of the skills in the game that mesmer interrupts actually work on cost too much to just throw out willy nilly. I stress out with my finger on the Power Spike skill already, trying to guess when the monk in PvP is going to throw down Zealous Benediction.

In my experience as a Mesmer and a Ranger, I just bring a Ranger for interrupts. They're far more reliable, can interrupt almost all skills, not just spells, and don't suffer so badly when you don't time an attack just right.

Personally, when I do use a mesmer, it's just to passively harass casters with hexes like diversion, backfire and wastrel's worry so my teammates can get the job done. It's not unique or clever but it's the most efficient and reliable kind of build you're going to get out a mesmer.

BDZeres · Apr 19, 2007, 04:57 PM // 16:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSecorsky

People like to say that mesmers aren't "necessary", however, they actually make a party much more efficient than say, that third ele does. Tanks become tankier, casters castier, monks monkier. They deal and prevent damage in a combination like no others.

"Necessity" is the wrong word to use. Mesmers make your party better. Yes, you can get by with that third ele, but you'll do better with the mesmer along.

Well said. But keep in mind it is much more difficult to find a good Mesmer as opposed to a searing flames ele. If any of you love playing Mesmers in FoW or UW just add me to friends list and gimme a PM if I'm on and America has favor I will 99% make room in the party for you if I am leading it. I dont mind playing with mesmers in other PvE areas as well so if you need help and cant get a PuG gimme a shout.

I had a mesmer toon I deleted a long time ago because I couldn't get a group to do anything

. I always felt left out and unwanted. So I made a monk

(most wanted prof ftw) Hence my empathy with the rest of the mesmer player community

lyra_song · Apr 19, 2007, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinnyRidira

I will look at [wiki]Ineptitude[/wiki] but I generally run a very Vanilla Mesmer build. It seems resilient and I guess I would not go farming with it.

Code:

OQZEAZkSOpYDQByoBD+KgC9A

with a spread over all attributes

This is pvp application of course.

Ineptitude + Clumsiness spike on any martial weapon class is generally enough to make one turn around and run away.

Its really hard to use these skills in PvE though.

Solaufyn · Apr 19, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

Anet knows theres a problem. Anet acknowledges the problem in public.

If Anet wanted to dodge the issue, they would have kept their mouth shut.

I never said they weren't acknowledging the problem. In fact, it was acknowledged months ago with that statement on what the designers were addressing.

My post points out that her post shows that there have been no advancements since. Thus, "Where's the beef?"

-Sol

MSecorsky · Apr 19, 2007, 05:26 PM // 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by lyra_song

This is pvp application of course.

Ineptitude + Clumsiness spike on any martial weapon class is generally enough to make one turn around and run away.

Its really hard to use these skills in PvE though.

Try 'em on a pack of aataxes with epidemic to spread the blind around.

lyra_song · Apr 19, 2007, 05:35 PM // 17:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solaufyn

I never said they weren't acknowledging the problem. In fact, it was acknowledged months ago with that statement on what the designers were addressing.

My post points out that her post shows that there have been no advancements since. Thus, "Where's the beef?"

-Sol

My best bet is that whatever Anet cooked up is active on the test server and will be rolled out.

Dodging the question? Hardly.

Like i said. If they wanna dodge it, theyll keep quiet about it.

Like for example: Alternate access to the Deep/Urgoz. We were promised this...and nothing came to fruition.